We’re back! With a bit of an experiment. We had planned a winter solstice reflection session (similar to our Autumn Equinox one) - but this time decided to record ourselves actually having a conversation!
So, dive into the two of us talking with our actual voices, in what turned out to be a really juicy chat about work, challenge, ease, power and the sticky nature of time. We ponder things like how hard it can be to let things feel easy, and how to discern the right kind of hard. We talk about where ideas come from, resisting the urge to be too energetic this early in the year, the importance of dreaming before you act, and our perennial circling around different conceptions of time.
If you prefer to read, there’s a transcript below (which has been lightly edited (by Kate!) to take out the multiple places where one or both of us said something like “yeah, right, well, like it’s just, like, interesting”, or “you know, and like,” before every thought…) Fair warning, it’s long, so you might need to read it in your browser.
Transcript:
Kate: So we are here because we were going to do a winter solstice reflection on where we are with Edges and Echoes. And it is approximately one month after the winter solstice. But. I think January is basically like a non-existent month. So I think it still counts. We're still in the depths of winter.
Lynne: We're in the depths of winter. And I think it's quite fitting actually, like this kind of swimming in the dreamy space that feels like the depths of winter to me, like where time ceases to exist. And we did talk a lot about wanting to embrace Kairos time over the past quarter. It just turns out that maybe we did that.
K: Yeah, see, that is it. I've had a number of these conversations recently. I think my default is like, I'm not doing things well enough. And you're like, actually, maybe that, maybe we are just doing it and that's okay. I did read back on what we'd written in the last quarter and I was like, it's all about time. Where are you? What are your reflections or where we got to by Christmas?
L: I also had a read back and it's interesting because after the autumn equinox reflections that we did, there was a lot that was about time and really wanting to find time and carve out these pockets of Kairos time so that we could be more reflective. And then, and then we went through a little journey through power. And then things kind of just started to tail off. It felt like it was almost like we created this space from Kairos time. And, cause we've deliberately done these reflections to tie into, to, you know, the equinoxes and the solstices, because we had an intuition that it was going to reveal something, something about the way the year, the cycles of the year reflects how we work. And it just kind of made me laugh reading through that really does feel like it happened. And even now, like I haven't written a post since your last one in mid December. And I am, you know, I thought I was gonna pick it up again this week and then I was like, we're having this chat, I'll pick it up next week. And yeah, it just feels like this real embodiment. I feel like I was lucky enough during the winter break to really have some spacious time and I'm really feeling the benefits of that. Yeah, how about you? Where did we get to?
K: Yeah, similar. I also was kind of laughing at myself slightly because I remember feeling when we were talking about this in the autumn being like actually, yeah, I was worried that I wouldn't have time for this, but I feel like there's been time and it's been okay. And then like, yeah, really plunging into like September, October, November, December being like, oh, fuck, it's busy. And this is supposed to be fun, right? Like, this is not supposed to be like another stressful deadline. And so that thing of going, oh, actually, maybe this can stretch. And actually, yeah, we kind of both were kind of creating some time in there.
And yeah, I think that thing for me, the Kairos thing about it's not just like narrative, expansive time. It's doing things at the right time. I turned my computer off for two weeks over Christmas and did nothing in any way productive and unsurprisingly, I came back full of energy. But yeah, I think I still have this real cognitive dissonance between like this sense that I'm not doing enough. And then, but actually the reality of like, I am getting everything done that I need to get done, mostly. And the stuff that's hard often is because it's not quite the right time to do it. And I'm interested in what would help me relax into that a bit rather than feeling, but how do you sort of take an asset based approach to time rather than a deficit based one? Like that thing of like, I always feel like I don't have enough, but actually I have the time. I do have enough, I think, but I can't quite feel that yet. I think we were getting somewhere quite interesting. And I think it was right that we then stopped for a bit.
L: Yeah, right. It is like, oh, it's massive, isn't it? Cause certainly at no point during that spacious winter break did I feel like I wasn't doing enough or I wasn't enough or any of this enoughness that this scarcity mindset. And it feels like nobody was feeling that; there was just like all this spaciousness around. So it's like it's always something that we all co-create together. All of a sudden we're all in this space together and we're bouncing with each other in that energy co-creating scarcity.
But it makes me think actually of - I don't know whether you've ever read Wild Power, the book from the Red School? They write about, or they talk and do a lot of workshops and things about menstrual cycles and how to build your life around the rhythm of your cycle. And it's interesting, like they use a metaphor of the cycles of the year. It's like a fractal, the cycle of the month, right? And one of the things that really struck me when I was reading the book, um, was that there's this invitation to sink into the winter of your cycle, which is when you bleed, and to sink right into that and to the spaciousness of that. And they said like coming out the other side, like you'll probably feel a rush to dive back into the other side of it, run back into life again, because you've had these revelations in the winter time. And their really clear advice is to not do that, to brew a little bit longer than you think you should in that spacious time.
I have really observed myself in this winter cycle. I've gone so deep and nourishing and then it actually was the Oxford Real Farming Conference, right? Like back into the world, run, go. And it feels really satisfying cause it's so culturally condoned, right? It's so like, like maybe it's just this collective illusion of scarcity that we all remind each other of, or maybe it's like. that we celebrate it. I mean, I know we talked about that in some of our letters last quarter, like celebrating this idea of busyness. I remember you talking about like, new year, like you could start later, let's start the new year in February, and that really gives that spaciousness. But yeah, I feel myself not having done that.
K: I blame the end of the financial year. There's that thing of it's much easier to really turn off for Christmas than it is at any other time, mostly because you know that most other people are also gonna be off, right? So you're not gonna get back to that thing of I've got 70,000 emails. Things haven't been moving on in your absence. Everyone stops. And I think that's so powerful. But then I think the thing is, everyone I've spoken to is I really wanna kind of go a bit slowly.
But we've got all this shit to do by the end of March. Actually yeah I was just having a conversation with someone today who's like you know have you got any time, we've been asked to do a thing but it's got to be done by the end of March because it's the end of the financial year and so can you find five days in February and it's like I don't know! I want to say yes because I want to be helpful and it's interesting work and I like the people, and then you're like but it's there and then I'm still tied up in this um this thing about time and value, right? And like how, as a freelancer, particularly for any kind of day rate type work where you're like, are you paying me to sit in front of my computer for seven and a half hours a day? Or are you paying me to deliver some value? And actually does it matter how long it takes me to create that value? And sometimes it will take me twice as long to do some thinking as it will other times of the month.
I'm balancing on that tightrope of like these different like conceptions of time and expansiveness. And yeah, just the reality of this, we've come up with this calendar and but it is real, like it's real because we all say it's real. And that's actually part of the reason why I wanted to be freelance, to have the power to be in control of my own time. And so yeah, it's also we're both probably in quite a privileged position in terms of having quite a lot of flexibility. But does that make it almost harder because there's like the potential; there's so much, you could kind of do anything. Nobody's checking up on where I am at any point.
L: Yeah, I mean, it is like, well, classic privilege slash curse. I think it's overall, I think it's a privilege. I really struggle a lot more in places where someone, I have a line manager who is actively watching my moment to moment things that would be micromanaging. Nobody wants that. But, you know, like, but yeah, like at the same time as a freelancer, like I have, I track my hours and so it's literal. There is one hour clocked for X pounds of work. They're very tightly coupled. But it does not work that way at all. And like I can, and like I've been practicing, I feel like for years to decouple these things in myself. I don't think I'm good at it, but I have a lot more awareness than I used to have.
Cause I guess, probably like many of us I’m coming from a place of definitely undervaluing my own time. As soon as you start to put those concrete, like compartmentalised measuring it, you know, like I just wouldn't, if I'd sat at my computer and didn't get the amount of tasks done that I thought I was supposed to get done in an hour, I wouldn't invoice for the work. And it's like, that was a great way to make myself broke. So it basically came from necessity. I had to start invoicing for something. Yeah, but then like, on the other side of it, you know, I'm like drawing out budgets and things at the moment, trying to figure out how to make budgets work. And, and we, there is this element of like, oh, well, what if we make it three days a week here and four days a week there and it's like suddenly, like to make the rest of the whole budget cash flow work. then I have to start putting these concrete things against people's time. And there is like, I mean, I guess there's like, you know, stepping in or being in roles where we get to have some kind of leadership and organisations, we can play that buffer and make that space, help to make that space, bring those conversations to the teams that we're in and acknowledge how hard it is.
K: Yeah. Yeah, it's like, I kind of, I really enjoy, from a pure, like, creative point of view, that thing of pulling together a project plan, making a lovely rainbow spreadsheet and being like, well, that will be three and a half days. And I'll actually know we need to bring that down a bit. So we'll make it two and a half days. But it's a complete fiction, right? We have to all participate in that fiction, because that's how you get money in the world that we're in. But I'm so interested in this thing that everyone knows it's fictional.
I've had a lot of conversations in the past couple of months, I guess, around this thing of how do you do capacity planning as a small organisation? We were doing this the other day, right? You're like, okay, well, there's three days of this and there's four days of that. And actually that leaves us a gap of two days. Like those days are all equal things. Like they're kind of constant inputs, which... they're not. But we need, it's almost like it's, we all need to agree on that fiction that they are.
So how do you have that world and then have the human swirling world above it where like, you know, yeah, you were saying genius might strike and actually you might see a new way to do something that takes half the time, but that doesn't mean you should get paid half the amount. So yeah, the value thing is something I feel like is, we've got time and we've got power, but like, what does value really mean? And like, are we doing the right thing? Because I think that's also the other thing of like, we end up inheriting systems and processes and things and, you know, assumptions that you made about the best way to do something and are we actually spending our time doing the right thing? is, I suppose that's the key question. How do you know it's right? But yeah, I wonder whether we might go there a bit in the next couple of months, I don't know.
L: Yeah, how do you know what you're working on is the right thing? And I guess partly like, I mean, yeah, that sounds like a great direction to be exploring, particularly as we're coming into springtime, right? And the kind of blossoming, growing things, seeds being planted, like, yeah. Often I wonder if it's just not up to us to decide if it's the right thing. Like one of the ways I try to approach this now is taking one of these like nature inspired metaphors that just like spreading seeds. And like, yeah, sometimes I'll go through a period of my life where I'm cutting out all the things like, oh, I'm overloaded. I'm just gonna cut, cut. And other times I'll just be like, I'm just gonna cast a little seed there, see if it takes. Most of the seeds don't take, but it's quite nice just to put these little things into the world in that way. And then sometimes too many of them take and it gets a little bit overwhelming.
But yeah, I think liberating myself from that idea that I'm supposed to know what's a good idea and what's not a good idea. I mean, there's almost a deep irony for a lefty in it. And that like the market is actually a good thing to decide this stuff. I mean, I think the way that the market drives efficiency rather than abundance is nonsense, but the way that you can find out just from this, self-autonomous set of organizing folks cracking on with their lives, whether things have traction or not, there is. There's some beauty in that, like, baby bath water type thing I'm thinking about.
K: Yeah, that's a question, isn't it? Like, what does a... what does and I'm imagining I've still got that image in my head from that one of the ones you wrote about the geniuses swirling around like ideas.
L: I wish that was my idea but it's not my idea.
K: Yeah like Aristotle's or something?! I think part of the challenge at the moment is the market that we have doesn't actually - Something I really feel quite keenly is actually the way you get things out is by having a really good comms team. And like that's often something that people are lacking. And so that it's almost the marketplace of the presentation rather than the idea.
L: That's really tricky in this world for sure.
K: so yeah, what does a marketplace of abundance look like? What is that? I feel like it's really true, and the seasons thing is really interesting, right? Like things grow more easily in the spring. And if you're trying to make a seed grow in December, then it's going to be really hard work. And you're going to spend a lot of time looking after something that could actually thrive on its own a few months later. You're like, oh, this was really hard. And now it's suddenly got a bit easier because the conditions are changed. It's almost like, do we need better sensory organs to know when the time to plant the seeds or the, yeah, when just to let things be and be like, not necessarily prune, but like, I'm just gonna ignore that for a while. And if it comes back, it comes back versus like, what am I actually putting effort and energy into? And I'm really interested in like, yeah, how do we, how do we make things feel easy? And then feel okay with that, because that's a big part of me that feels like things shouldn't feel easy, they should feel hard, because that's work. But that feels like a thing I want to unlearn. I want to enjoy the easiness.
L: Is it a Buddhist concept, the unbearable lightness of being? I do believe in that, in that Buddhist way that everything can be really easy. And if things are hard, that's information. And if we can't hear that information, then there's probably some ego in the way. Because like, that's generally what's in the way of just receiving information. I think the thing that gets in the way of me, the more I live my life with this kind of way of being, like, the more abundance opens up, the more freedom I feel like I have, the lighter life feels, everything feels better. But you know, it goes counter, the way it goes counter to like social movement narratives, right? Because we're in a struggle for justice. I really agree with that. I don't think we can change the world without social movements really working for what is right. And that is sometimes a struggle. This is where I get wrapped up in knots. Because sometimes I do wonder where social movements, certainly like, you know, the young activist mentality of like, grind yourself for the movement, work yourself to the bone. How many of us have burnt out with that mentality? Like all of us at least once, probably more times. Is that part of the capitalist mindset to justice transformation in an inappropriate way.
K: Yeah, I feel like that's a really fertile bit of ground for inquiry, right? And I love, you know, like I'm a big fan of adrienne maree brown, as I may have mentioned, like 7,000 times, but finding where can we organise around pleasure, actually. But I ran a lovely workshop for some people here this week. And it was good. It was what they needed. It was impactful. They had some really good conversations and it was easy. And part of this is because they're very pleasant people who are really nice to work with, right? But it's also because I'm quite good at it.
There's a big part of me that's like, that's kind of cheating. Like, you know, but actually the work that has value is the work that I find hard. The work I find hard is work other people find easy, right? I know like intellectually that the world isn't served by me struggling through, for example, something else I've done this week that has taken me more headspace than it should is like a contract amendment extension letters for a different project, and it's like, I put the wrong Google Doc links in the air table and I didn't notice and there was a typo in one of the numbers. I can sort it out. Like I'm capable, right, of doing that. But it didn't feel easy. And I've got this thing of like, is it allowed if I build myself a portfolio of work that all feels easy? And it's not that to say that it's not challenging, right? Like that's it. I think. I feel like there's this thing of you do need, we need determination and we need like struggle is a thing that is going to have to happen and discomfort has got to be in there and stuff. But it's like, yeah. What is work? Like, does it, if it doesn't feel like work, does it still count?
L: Yeah, right. Like it's got this connotation that it's shit, like hard work, value of hard work. That is obviously true, right? There are things that we need to do sometimes which are hard and are worth doing, but somehow that's become conflated with this idea. Like you leaning into these incredible gifts you have that create this joyous work. That is a magnificent service to the world. The challenges obviously will come from somewhere else. Like there will be challenges, but it's just interesting how, because, because we were taught that work is hard sometimes to give us some grit to get through quadratic equations or whatever nonsense we learned at some point in our life all work becomes conflated in that way, as opposed to just, and that feels like a nuance to unpack, like, let's allow the easy, joyful things that were just become naturally to us to flow in the knowledge that the hard work there's a different feeling to it, right? Like there's some kinds of hard work where I feel like I'm smashing my head against a computer screen. And it's just not, it's not enjoyable to any part of me. And then there's the times of growth where it's like, there's a bit of fear, there's a bit of like, imposter syndrome, usually a bit of like, yeah, there's all these other things that are that might be a little bit like smashing my head against a computer screen, but they're not like just destroying my soul. I'm in this growth and stretch space. That's the hard that I want to lean into.
K: Yeah, so how do you discern the difference? Because yeah, I really agree. Like I don't want to shy away from the hard. And like I don't want to spend the rest of my life just running one off workshops for people. Because actually that's not where the change happens, right? Like it's kind of useful. But like the real work is deeper and there it's that is hard. In the Dispossessed, that Ursula Le Guin book, the anarchists on the moon, they have the same word for work and play, they don't distinguish.
L: It's genius.
K: Yeah, like there's just, there's definitely something there, I think. So yeah, if this isn't too much of a capitalist framing, what are your goals for the next quarter? Where do you think we might be by the spring equinox? Or where would you like us to be?
L: Yeah, I mean, I'm really excited about it, I feel like we have gone in and deep and juicy, and I feel like I have a lot of energy for that growth and stretch stuff. As we, I guess, like, I don't want to hurry that either because we've got, it's easy to think it's the new year, but we've got the rest of January and all of February, it’s all coldness. Yeah. So maybe I'm getting a little ahead of myself in that, in that feeling. Maybe it would be nice to have an intention of brewing deeply for a while longer. One thing I heard in a talk recently was that in Celtic traditions the New Year was at Halloween, at Samhain? And the new day started at sunset and the provocation from that is like, what was their relationship to the darkness? And what does that mean about the invitation to dream before you act? Which I thought was beautiful provocation. As soon as you ask that question, it's like, yeah, go, grow, be, do. And actually, I'm going to retract that. I wonder what it would be like to just allow the brewing a while longer. Maybe to, as we write these letters back and forth to, to set that as this spacious kairos, time to allow, because I can feel so many other parts of me just like rushing into this new year. So what if that was, yeah, maybe that's my intention. Let's see if I can actually live through it.
K: Oh, I love that. Yeah, because we’ve still got February to get through, which is officially like January. It's not necessarily going to be better. So let's light the candles at breakfast time and let's have lots of blankets and keep warm. I really like what you're saying. Because we have this ridiculous construct of the financial year, many of the other parts of our lives are going to be a bit hectic and it's like I'm already seeing my diary filling up and it's like oh we've got to do all these. I found a big piece of yellow PVC and I've written a list of everything that's going on it. And I would really like to keep some time, like, yeah, this is the slower time, actually, and that feels like a really lovely intention.
But I wonder whether there's something about coming to March. Maybe we just need a place where we're noting down what those seeds might be. It's like the year has turned, right? And so actually, yeah, that kind of thing of where, what are the seeds that we might want to start? And maybe that's what we reflect on, in March. It's like, actually, what are we, what do we want to put out there? But so maybe we need a... Maybe we need to start that arena thing again or something, you know, like we need a place where we're noting down or we just do it in the letter. So like actually are there seeds? Because I think the question of seeds is a really nice one.
L: Yeah, I really like this. It's like we're not planning on germinating any seeds for our next reflection session, but we do want to know what our seedscape is.
K: Yeah. Or just at least have a little envelope that we can put them in, right? Like it's sort of to notice that if we're finding them.
L: Yeah, as in like a collection of seeds, not like any decisions or anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we can see them. OK. I'm not, I'm also not sure where that place would be, but that's.
K: It'll emerge.
L: We'll have a place and we'll share it with people as well because we're working in the open.
K: Yeah, and then yeah the summer, spring and summer, is the time for expansiveness and like experimenting or like doing things differently then actually that then feels like it fits anyway it fits nice and logically. I love a nice logical fit.
Okay. Cool. Is that us reflected? Is there anything else you want to...
L: No, I feel pretty reflected. Nice reflections.
K Yeah, you too.
L: Yeah. Okay, sweet.
K Alright, let's, I don't know, say goodbye. I mean, we're not actually saying goodbye. I'll just stop the recording.